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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:25 am 
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Hardcase said it for me.

These books you're citing are only pointing to the lives of black americans either during reconstruction or during slavery. The "highly controversial" book that you posted? It is criticized for using flawed statistical analysis and mining data from ONE plantation. Even so, this book is highly flawed in that they describe the rational, economic interest in forcing a slave family together.


The answer is, to produce and raise more slaves. So you want to hear that, on the most abstract level, you might be right? Okay, here it goes:


"Gee whiz, Wheels! Even though the books that you post don't make a comparative study between slave families and post-1960's black families, and your simplistic conclusion that welfare was the driving cause for the modern black family that does not take in account lack of social mobility, poor education standards, low career opportunities coupled with the exodus of manufacturing bases, systemic and historic prejudice, Executive agencies lack of oversight and their misuse of power to flood ghettos with drugs... you may be right! Black slave families, may have been held together and therefore better than families today, on welfare! I mean, it's so dang obvious that slavery was a superior system to keep slave families together, because unlike welfare, it had the great idea to treat these family units as a breeding stock, so that they could bring up more slaves!!"

"And there is absolutely NO WAY that your statement of black families holding together better than black families on welfare today could be logically inferred to mean that you think blacks had it better under slavery! No way! I mean, the whole idea of "families staying together" no matter for what reason would have to be equated with a SUPERIOR outcome than "families separating"! And you'd have to ignore all the advances in civil rights, because dignity and respect are concepts that are concepts that cannot be measured! And you'd have to ignore all the social mobility that African Americans experienced! And you would have to ignore the breakup of the traditional family in general in favor of the nuclear family due to the expansion of women's rights, contraception, and no-fault divorce!"

"Nope, in no way can you logically infer that black families were better off when they were treated and kept like livestock when you say that black families held together better in times of slavery than they do today, utilizing welfare. And thinking that somehow that statement is radical and/or racist? PERISH the thought!"

"Man... I sure have learned a lot today. Thank you so much for proving me wrong about not being able to make simple inferences! I can't believe how much my eyes are opened! You know, black america deserves to hear that they were better off, family-wise, when they had no rights and their employers owned them and regarded them and treated them as livestock. I should go spread that word, but I think you should go first, because you have such a way with words."

I wish I could say I could not believe someone could be this dense, but there is it.

Just stop. I'm not going toe to toe with you, because this subject flirts with a board prohibited topic and you don't possess the basic tools for this kind of conversation. Go read up on gardening; it'll do you a lot better than this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:37 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 2224
adamantine27 wrote:
Hardcase said it for me.


Of course welfare affects all races and colors, but not equally. If so, then how on Earth could Obama being labeled the "food stamp president" be racist? The people claiming it's racist claim so because things like food stamps and welfare are associated with blacks. No one would even make such an argument if all the races were equally harmed by the welfare state.

Quote:
These books you're citing are only pointing to the lives of black americans either during reconstruction or during slavery...


And others criticize the critics of the statistical analysis. Like I said, it has produced a lot of debate. You also completely missed the point I was making. What the different books show, and even the books arguing against them show, is that the argument that the black family unit was more intact under slavery than it modern times, is ***not*** any radical argument. That is again not any endorsement of slavery.

Quote:
The answer is, to produce and raise more slaves. So you want to hear that, on the most abstract level, you might be right? Okay, here it goes:


Things like lack of social mobility, poor education standards, low career opportunities, racism, etc...have been faced by many races, yet they do not suffer the same problems as the blacks are. There is also a very large volume of study on the effects of the welfare state that goes way beyond this thread. And slavery a "superior" system? No on is claiming that!

Quote:
"And there is absolutely NO WAY that your statement of black families...


Black families holding together under slavery better than black families under a welfare state is a critique of the welfare state, not any endorsement of slavery. You need to remember that humans respond ot incentives. Faulty incentives can destroy a people moreso than even something like slavery. Also, the nuclear family and the traditional family are the same thing, I am guessing maybe you just mis-typed there.

Quote:
"Nope, in no way can you logically infer...I wish I could say I could not believe someone could be this dense, but there is it.

Just stop. I'm not going toe to toe with you, because this subject flirts with a board prohibited topic and you don't possess the basic tools for this kind of conversation. Go read up on gardening; it'll do you a lot better than this topic.


It is yourself who is coming across as a bit dense here. I think part of the problem is that, for whatever reason, this is a very emotionally-charged topic for you and you are unable to really handle debating it. Again, the argument that the black family unit fared better during slave times is not anything unheard of or radical. And NO ONE is claiming that blacks were better-off when they had no rights and were treated as livestock. No one is claiming that the black family unit faring better during slavery times was a result of slavery (which is what you keep inferring). You are completely misconstruing the debate. The argument is that, as bad as slavery was, the welfare state has been even more damaging to the black family unit. Considering the wealth of scholarship on the subject of the black family unit under slavery (some say it fared badly, others say it fared well), and then all the work on the effects of the welfare state, there is nothing radical about such an argument. There is nothing all that difficult to even understand about this point. You are making this into a much bigger issue then it need be.

It is an important question, because it goes to the crux of the question of, "How to fix the plight of the black family?" Is much of the current damage to the black family a result ultimately of slavery because slavery was very damaging to the black family? This has been argued and used to be the standard belief, but it has holes if the black family was faring better during slavery times. Or is it the result of other things, such as the welfare state, flooding of black neighborhoods with drugs, and things like that?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:17 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:21 am
Posts: 3861
Unemployment and poverty are not problems of the black community, they're a problem everywhere. You are trying to insinuate that the vast majority of blacks who are unemployed are lazy. Let's say that there are a higher percentage of black families on welfare; all that tells us is the rank unfairness with which the black population have been treated down the decades in the US. Discriminated against in many walks of life; including employment. Being excluded from this and being excluded from that. If the boot had been on the other foot the white population could have changed and switched roles with the black population.

The way you present it it's all the black community's fault. Well as an outsider to the US i can tell you the vast majority of people can see the situation as it truly is and don't view it that way, as i might add do most US citizens themselves; the black people in America have been treated horribly in past generations, it's only nowadays due to civil rights and people becoming more enlightened that things are starting to change.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:28 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 2224
Hardcase wrote:
Unemployment and poverty are not problems of the black community, they're a problem everywhere. You are trying to insinuate that the vast majority of blacks who are unemployed are lazy.


No I'm not. But unemployment and poverty among blacks is a lot worse than it is among whites, even in good economic times.

Quote:
Let's say that there are a higher percentage of black families on welfare; all that tells us is the rank unfairness with which the black population have been treated down the decades in the US. Discriminated against in many walks of life; including employment. Being excluded from this and being excluded from that. If the boot had been on the other foot the white population could have changed and switched roles with the black population.


Absolutely. What is argued by some is that blacks were well on their way to achieving economic equality with whites, but then when things like the Great Society programs were passed, and welfare programs were greatly increased, this stunted the blacks in doing so. Those welfare programs affected all races, but since so many blacks were still poverty-stricken at the time, it hurt them in particular (or so goes the argument, as there are those who refute this). And then of course things like drugs as well.

Quote:
The way you present it it's all the black community's fault. Well as an outsider to the US i can tell you the vast majority of people can see the situation as it truly is and don't view it that way, as i might add do most US citizens themselves; the black people in America have been treated horribly in past generations, it's only nowadays due to civil rights and people becoming more enlightened that things are starting to change.


I'm not blaming the black community at all. I don't know where you get that impression. This whole debate has been over the welfare state and it's affects on blacks. That's not blaming blacks themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:47 am 
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I think I've made my point that you can't make simple inferences if it requires you to take notice of things that go against this whole "I'm a neutral automaton that has a default setting of a conservative narrative" schtick you've do.

Truth be told, I stopped reading here:

WheelsRCool wrote:
Of course welfare affects all races and colors, but not equally. If so, then how on Earth could Obama being labeled the "food stamp president" be racist? The people claiming it's racist claim so because things like food stamps and welfare are associated with blacks. No one would even make such an argument if all the races were equally harmed by the welfare state.


Because I noticed that beyond that point, you weren't quoting full statements/points from me, just taking partials of them and picking at them. You weren't addressing the full inferences, and I'm guessing it's because you can't defend your positions if you do.

Because you can't seem to grasp that racism isn't some sort of rational economic model. White people use more welfare benefits than any others, yet in popular consciousness, the "welfare queen" stereotype is black. Those on welfare are considered to be lazy and unproductive, and welfare is largely associated with black america. Labelling the president, therefore, as "a food stamp president" is very much a Southern Strategy innuendo/coding to just associate him with racial stereotypes. It's fucking racist.

We're not going to have a sentence for sentence back and forth here based on your inability to draw simple inferences and whitewash very complex history. I don't have a lot of time on my hands these days to do that anymore. I've got a demanding job, a friend running for office, a woman to appreciate, meals to cook, training to do, and a computer to buy (mine broke and I'm posting from my smartphone). Also, I. STILL. HAVEN'T. WATCHED. THE WIRE.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:42 pm
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Location: Chattanooga, TN
Is it possible to say something bad about a black man without being racist?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:29 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 2224
adamantine27 wrote:
Truth be told, I stopped reading here:

Because I noticed that beyond that point, you weren't quoting full statements/points from me, just taking partials of them and picking at them. You weren't addressing the full inferences, and I'm guessing it's because you can't defend your positions if you do.


You are very mistaken. The reason I decided not to quote your full quotes is because I thought it would make the response look way too long. So as to keep it as short and sweet as possible, I figured I'd quote the main crux of each of your points, while responding to the whole of your quotes. If you go back and read my post, you'll see this.

Quote:
Because you can't seem to grasp that racism isn't some sort of rational economic model.


??????? I don't know where I ever implied or said that racism is a rational economic model :confusion-scratchheadblue:

Quote:
White people use more welfare benefits than any others, yet in popular consciousness, the "welfare queen" stereotype is black.


In terms of sheer numbers, more white people are on welfare than black people because there are a lot more white people in America than black people. In terms of the percentage of whites on welfare versus the percentage of the black population on welfare however, there is a larger percentage of the black population on welfare than the white population.

The image of the welfare queen has never been of a black to me, but maybe that is because I was raised around a good number of low-class whites who fit the welfare queen stereotype. I agree that it is wrong to associate this image solely with blacks.

Quote:
Those on welfare are considered to be lazy and unproductive, and welfare is largely associated with black america. Labelling the president, therefore, as "a food stamp president" is very much a Southern Strategy innuendo/coding to just associate him with racial stereotypes. It's fucking racist.


If times were prosperous and someone tried that, I could more see this point, but in this current economic environment, where so many people are using food stamps, I do not see it as racist. Obama is a black man. You don't need to employ any Southern Strategy to get racists to not vote for him, because they will already hate him simply for his color.

Quote:
We're not going to have a sentence for sentence back and forth here based on your inability to draw simple inferences and whitewash very complex history. I don't have a lot of time on my hands these days to do that anymore. I've got a demanding job, a friend running for office, a woman to appreciate, meals to cook, training to do, and a computer to buy (mine broke and I'm posting from my smartphone). Also, I. STILL. HAVEN'T. WATCHED. THE WIRE.


Okay, well two things though:

1) Again, I wasn't quoting only parts of your arguments to avoid debate, I was just doing it to make my responses not take up half the page

2) Don't get embroiled into controversial stuff on forums if you don't want to debate, because some people will want to debate!


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:59 am 
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WheelsRCool wrote:
Black families holding together under slavery better than black families under a welfare state is a critique of the welfare state, not any endorsement of slavery.


In a critique, you cannot compare one institution to one another, favor one above the other ("A better than B"), and then claim that there is not an implicit endorsement of one.

WheelsRCool wrote:
I think part of the problem is that, for whatever reason, this is a very emotionally-charged topic for you and you are unable to really handle debating it.


I don't handle debating racism very well. But let's use a little 6th grade grammar and composition to logically break things down in order to hammer the implicit ideas of your statement.

See if you can't follow:

Black families hold together better under slavery than they do under a welfare state.

Families hold together better under slavery than Families do under a welfare state.

Families hold together better under A than Families under B.

A holds together better than B.

Now let's make the logical inference of "better than" to equate with superiority.

A is better than B

Therefore:

Slavery is better than the welfare state.

Better? For whom are we talking about?

For black families, slavery is better than the welfare state.

Wait... "better" how?

In terms of holding together black families, slavery is better than the welfare state.

As I stated when I began: In a critique, you cannot compare one institution to one another, favor one above the other ("A better than B"), and then claim that there is not an implicit endorsement of one.


WheelsRCool wrote:
It is yourself who is coming across as a bit dense here.


Oh, wow. I totally see your point.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:24 am
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Someone skipped predicate calculus.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:48 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 2224
adamantine27 wrote:
In a critique, you cannot compare one institution to one another, favor one above the other ("A better than B"), and then claim that there is not an implicit endorsement of one.


Yes you can. Think of it this way: what if there was a public policy that was very well-meaning, but had very clearly BAD results for the black population, let's say so clear, that there was no debating that this policy was bad. If someone observed that the policy did more harm to blacks than slavery had done, that is not an endorsement of slavery, it's a criticism of the policy.

Slavery infringes on the freedoms of a people. Even if a public policy harms an aspect of a people moreso than slavery did, that is not endorsing slavery, because endorsing slavery means literally saying it is better to take away the people's freedom versus let them have free will. Criticizing the policy simply is observing that humans respond to incentives and if the incentives are bad, then we need to change the policies.

Because of things like freedom and free will, it complicates the subject moreso. If you had a free people who worked hard, but lived by modern standards in poverty, versus a people who were let's say enslaved in a "nice" manner, i.e. they were living in a very luxurious prison with all the modern amenities, but couldn't leave and had to do their jobs each day, who is better off? If one observed that the enslaved people were living better than the free people, that's not an endorsement of slavery, because in exchange for that nicer material standard-of-living, you'd have to give up free will. Just the same, pointing out that a set of policies on free blacks may have hurt them more than slavery did, is not endorsing slavery at all. It's just pointing out that the policies need revision.

adamantine27 wrote:
I don't handle debating racism very well. But let's use a little 6th grade grammar and composition to logically break things down in order to hammer the implicit ideas of your statement.

See if you can't follow:

Black families hold together better under slavery than they do under a welfare state.

Families hold together better under slavery than Families do under a welfare state.

Families hold together better under A than Families under B.

A holds together better than B.

Now let's make the logical inference of "better than" to equate with superiority.

A is better than B

Therefore:

Slavery is better than the welfare state.

Better? For whom are we talking about?

For black families, slavery is better than the welfare state.

Wait... "better" how?


Sure, if you use 6th grade reasoning, that's the conclusion that you come to, but these topics are bit more complicated then that.

Quote:
In terms of holding together black families, slavery is better than the welfare state.


But slavery didn't exactly hold together black families, it was damaging as well.


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