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 Post subject: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:43 pm 
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Ok, so I have started this thread as I have been PMed quite a few times regarding how to set up IF style diets or training while IFing, as well as seeing heaps of questions in both the nutrition and occasionally the S&C forum.

Basically, ask any questions pertaining to intermittent fasting in this thread and either myself or another individual that has some knowledge of IF in it's various forms (I've predominantly used leangains, but others use different methods) will try and answer your questions.

Any questions that could be answered by just reading the leangains website, like 'how do I do leangains if I train at 6am?' will be told to just read the website properly, or given a link to the information. This thread isn't about wiping your ass for you, it is for info that isn't really provided already. I'll post a few FAQs shortly to get the ball rolling and hopefully pre empt some of the things that will be asked.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:19 pm 
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FAQ #1 - I play sport/like doing some form of cardio. What is the best way to work this into my training routine, along with the leangains protocol? (Martin advises against cardio, so it isn't really covered on his site)

A - You have a few options, if you play sport, like football in the morning, then your best option is to probably not IF that day, if you prefer not to, then follow the morning training protocol outlined on the site. This one day could even be made into your 'free' day if you incorporate it into your diet, allowing you a bit of freedom to have a few drinks and a meal with your team mates afterwards. Also, if you have control of your own hydration during a game, then you could look at mixing some BCAAs and glucose into your drink (or mixing BCAAs into gatorade etc..) if you prefer to continue fasting on these days.

If you are just incorporating cardio because you enjoy it then you can 1. Add a small cardio session to the end of your strength sessions (best option for med-high intensity training that doesnt take too long) 2. Do it on your off days AFTER breaking the fast, so you'd have your smallest or medium meal, train a little while later, eat your biggest meal, then last meal as per usual. 3. Do it during the fast, best for low intensity training, like walking.

If you must do a high intensity session during the fast, do the morning training protocol as outlined.

FAQ #2 - I train for much longer than MB recommends, upwards of 90mins, will this work with leangains?

A - Yes, a small modification MAY be needed however, train and eat as per the leangains guide, but after about 45-60mins, consume 5-10g of BCAAs and an optional 20-30g of CHO. I have done this and also just trained all the way through without it and while I did notice a small difference, I don't believe it to be of huge importance. I think it will be more important whether or not you are accustomed to the workload you are putting yourself through. If you find your sessions dropping off after the 45min mark, then either find a way to cut down your training time, consume the mid workout calories or just accept the fact that the end of your sessions are going to be sub par.

FAQ #3 - MB doesn't say what macro ratios to eat, other than low carb/med fat off days, high carb/low fat training days. How do I figure this out? (probably the most asked question I've seen)

A - In the end, this isn't of huge importance, as long as your training days are predominantly carbs and mod-high protein and off days are higher fat and protein, less carbs then you will do ok. I recommend against cutting carbs too low on off days if you are very active, I have done it and suffered a drop in performance, if you are pretty sedentary on off days, you could go as low as 50g most likely.

This site is cool for working out your desired macros http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

I'll leave it at that for now.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:04 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:56 pm
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Being an amateur boxer how could one incorporate IF?

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:05 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 1202
Location: London
Warning: Massive post here.

On some days it's a struggle to get a 16/8 split going and still have 3 meals at the right times. My schedule seems determined to throw up as many problems as possible. Here are the two days that are causing me problems, the rest I think I can work something out. Conditioning is best done in the mornings due to time and how busy the streets are.

Thursday:
- Train 0600-0700
- Class from 0900-1000 and 1200-1500. Travel time is 1 hour, so I am busy from 0800-1600, with 2 hours free at a time when I would be fasting. I could have Meal 1 here, but then the split would be off and I would have to alter the previous day's feed, and it would be difficult to get 3 meals in.
- Train at 1700.
- Dinner at ~1830 (Largest meal)
Then I would plan to have another meal at around 2000-2100, before starting the fast.

Friday is even worse:
- Train 0430-0700 (This is subject to change, but training will usually finish at 0700)
- Class from 0900-1600, with a 1 hour break at 11. With travel I'll be busy from 0800-1700.
- Train at 1700
- Dinner at ~1830 (Largest meal)
- Another meal at around 2100? Saturday is likely to be an off day so I guess there is not much of a problem at this point as I won't start a new fast.
Here there does not seem many options for a meal, except in BCAA form which isn't ideal; I need to eat at some point! I guess Friday could be used as an off day, although I would prefer the weekend for that purpose, so I can actually use it for sanity purposes. Similar problems to Thursday in that breaking the fast early will throw the fast off, especially as Thursday is awkward too.

Most of this wouldn't be a problem if I didn't train twice on those days. Taking something before the morning sessions is also not ideal as I prefer running fasted.
What I was looking at was something like this:

Whenever-0700: Train
0700: 10g BCAA
0900: 10g BCAA
1100: Meal 1 (Break fast early)
1500: 10g BCAA
1700: Train (or 1600 on THURS)
1830: Meal 2 (Largest meal)

Meal 3 is the problem here, on Thursday anyhow. It would have to be at around 2000 in order for the 16 hour fast, but how much I'll need to eat after 1 and a half hours is debatable.

Another possibility I was considering was a routine where I would only IF on the appropriate days. If that was the case, what alternatives are there for the Thursday/Friday?

I know it's a mess, but any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,
Tom.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:14 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am
Posts: 1595
I thought I would add my 2 c to this thread. As a Muslim, I fast from first light to sunset for the month of Ramadan every year. The fast involves no food or water during the fasting period. I believe my experience could be informative to others.

Every year it is the same for me. I drop HIIT and skills training, but continue to do max strength work and LSD runs. I get leaner during the first two weeks, stabilize during the second week, then get chubby during the last week. I believe this happens because my metabolism slows down eventually as my body goes into starvation mode. I believe my caloric intake is reduced by 1/4 from my normal intake.

Based on this experience, I have used IF as a way to control my weight throughout the rest of the year. Usually on Friday, I will skip breakfast and lunch, drinking only coffee. I will try to have only a light dinner. This is a successful approach because my body does not have a chance to respond to the reduced caloric intake by lowering my metabolism.

Thus I would caution all of you that, if you are looking to stay lean, you should use IF infrequently. As a daily routine, you are likely to slow your metabolism and get fat.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:22 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:33 am
Posts: 4040
Location: Buffalo NY
pathfighter wrote:
I thought I would add my 2 c to this thread. As a Muslim, I fast from first light to sunset for the month of Ramadan every year. The fast involves no food or water during the fasting period. I believe my experience could be informative to others.

Every year it is the same for me. I drop HIIT and skills training, but continue to do max strength work and LSD runs. I get leaner during the first two weeks, stabilize during the second week, then get chubby during the last week. I believe this happens because my metabolism slows down eventually as my body goes into starvation mode. I believe my caloric intake is reduced by 1/4 from my normal intake.

Based on this experience, I have used IF as a way to control my weight throughout the rest of the year. Usually on Friday, I will skip breakfast and lunch, drinking only coffee. I will try to have only a light dinner. This is a successful approach because my body does not have a chance to respond to the reduced caloric intake by lowering my metabolism.

Thus I would caution all of you that, if you are looking to stay lean, you should use IF infrequently. As a daily routine, you are likely to slow your metabolism and get fat.

Nope. Short term fasting increases metabolic rate (up to 60 hrs). Can link the study if you're curious, I used it in a proposal I'm working on. Starvation mode needs more than skipping a meal or two-think famine.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:29 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am
Posts: 1595
w1cked wrote:
pathfighter wrote:
I thought I would add my 2 c to this thread. As a Muslim, I fast from first light to sunset for the month of Ramadan every year. The fast involves no food or water during the fasting period. I believe my experience could be informative to others.

Every year it is the same for me. I drop HIIT and skills training, but continue to do max strength work and LSD runs. I get leaner during the first two weeks, stabilize during the second week, then get chubby during the last week. I believe this happens because my metabolism slows down eventually as my body goes into starvation mode. I believe my caloric intake is reduced by 1/4 from my normal intake.

Based on this experience, I have used IF as a way to control my weight throughout the rest of the year. Usually on Friday, I will skip breakfast and lunch, drinking only coffee. I will try to have only a light dinner. This is a successful approach because my body does not have a chance to respond to the reduced caloric intake by lowering my metabolism.

Thus I would caution all of you that, if you are looking to stay lean, you should use IF infrequently. As a daily routine, you are likely to slow your metabolism and get fat.

Nope. Short term fasting increases metabolic rate (up to 60 hrs). Can link the study if you're curious, I used it in a proposal I'm working on. Starvation mode needs more than skipping a meal or two-think famine.


You have one study. Post the PMID. I have my own experience for decades and the experience of billions of people over time. But I am a scientist, so send me the PMID and I will review it.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:33 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:33 am
Posts: 4040
Location: Buffalo NY
Here're are a couple. Can't find the full pdfs at home right now to share, need my university's database access...

Aoki TT. Metabolic adaptations to starvation, semistarvation and
carbohydrate restriction.

Marliss EB & Aoki, TT. Glucagon levels and metabolic effects in fasting man.

Cahill GF . Hormone-fuel interrelationship during fasting.

also by Cahill - Starvation in Man

Wolfe RR, Effect of short-term fasting on lipolytic responsiveness in normal
and obese human subjects.

& C Zauner Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine.

Quote:
I have my own experience for decades and the experience of billions of people over time. But I am a scientist,


Was that statement about using anecdotal evidence meant to be ironic? Can't tell anymore...

p.s.

more

The cardiovascular, metabolic and hormonal changes accompanying acute starvation in men and women., J Webber

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:27 am
Posts: 2709
Location: Australia
vicenteumanzor wrote:
Being an amateur boxer how could one incorporate IF?


I can't really answer that without a little more info, when do you train, how often, what job do you work etc...

Tom - I think you would be best off just getting as long a fast in as practical on those days, have some BCAAs before/after your run, but I wouldn't stress if a couple of times a week you land up doing 14/10 or something. 4-5/7 days of the week on the right schedule will still have you reaping a large portion of the benefits. You have a pretty packed schedule, I wouldn't be making more stress for yourself by trying to adhere perfectly to 16/8.

Or just give up eating all together? Haha.

Pathfighter - I have been using leangains for upwards on 9 months now, I have had no issue with metabolic slow down, I think what may have happened to you is that when you first started, your stomach wasn't accustomed to the larger meals OR it shrank from going periods without food, then as the ramadan wore on, you became accustomed and were able to get closer to your required cals for the day. When I first started I struggled to get 2000 cals in a day, now I can do it in one meal, so that is my guess.

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 Post subject: Re: The intermittent fasting thread
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:57 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 1202
Location: London
David_89 wrote:
Tom - I think you would be best off just getting as long a fast in as practical on those days, have some BCAAs before/after your run, but I wouldn't stress if a couple of times a week you land up doing 14/10 or something. 4-5/7 days of the week on the right schedule will still have you reaping a large portion of the benefits. You have a pretty packed schedule, I wouldn't be making more stress for yourself by trying to adhere perfectly to 16/8.

Or just give up eating all together? Haha.

Yup, that makes sense, thanks.
A last question for now: any particular brands of BCAA preferable? I know leangains recommend Purple Wraath, but is it really any different from the BCAAs you get anywhere else?

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