Insurance has existed for much, much longer than socialism has.

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I look in your eyes and c fear! Ill take your sole and give it the devil

Ok, permit me to do to your post what adam enjoys doing, cos you're touching on politically ideology and i was once an ideologically motivated indivdiual



Yeah well i DO think its right. My own PERSONAL reasoning is that we all have a stake in the social order regardless and both benefit from it doing well and suffer from it doing bad. Having a well fed educated healthy workforce benefits us all as do roads and bridges and other things the government is involved in.

I also personally believe in social justice. I spent several semesters studying the history of Victorian Britain and what a true Laissez Faire system can do. There is no social mobility in those systems. The poor, by and large stay poor and the rich continue to amass wealth and conitnue to hand it down to their children for GENERATIONS. It was a class based society because the means of moving through classes was not there. You died in the class you were born in. It wasn't until the poor got the vote, across the world that socialist ideas were given a democratic platform and implemented to varying degrees of successes and failure.

The US is as much socialist as any other country (i mean, it was the first nation in the WORLD to have more than half its kids go to university) but it does this via "privatised" socialism - as i touched on above. This is done in health, education, housing, etc.. by FORCING the private economy to contribute to public projects - by using insurance companies and banks and financial institutions to create illusory products that fall apart like a ponsie scheme - a policy whcih has contributed to the economic morass the democratic world finds itself in

(i say democratic, because its the DEMOCRATIC capitalist countries that are largely suffering, becuase DEMOCRACIES demand social justice). I want to know, if i do lose my job, i wont dissappear off the face of the eart. And if that private pension scheme i paid for my whole life time collapses and dissappears in some sort of, i don't know a CREDIT CRUNCH, then the taxation via the state i paid in will pay for me. I LIKE that.

That's just my position. The rest of your post is mere hyperbole.



No it doesn't say that. You could interpret it as saying the existence of your need trumps my right to A liberty - not to liberty itself. That "A" liberty, one liberty, is you liberty to control the portion of your wealth the state takes from you. Truth is though, the government holds ALL your liberties in its hands, via laws, which in democratic societies are conferred democratically. You don't actually have any liberties to speak off unless they are given to you by the state (you should join the Anarchist Society i was invovled with at uni lul!)



Without representation??? you have the fucking VOTE son! That is representation. Go ahead and vote for Romney next election and or your favourite Republican Governor/Senator

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Oh here we go again, adam telling us what this thread is ACTUALLY about

*yawn*

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Insurance allows groups of people to pay a relatively small periodic fee to insure against the event of needing services, in this case health care. I may only go to the doctor once a year, for an annual check up, but still I pay for health care every month, regardless of whether I need health care at the time. So, every year I am paying thousands of dollars into a system that I don't use so that if I do end up needing health care I'm covered.

On the flip side, if the same health care plan I pay for covers birth control, then there will be women who receive a daily dose of birth control. The woman that sparked this conversation said her birth control cost here roughly $3,000 a year. Can you imagine if half the US population, minus those too young and those too old suddenly received "free" birth control as part of their insurance? We're talking billions of dollars annually, a cost that would be spread among everybody, including people like myself, who only visit the doctor once or twice a year.

Now, I have nothing against an insurance plan that covers birth control existing. However, should I not have the option to purchase this health care plan or to choose not to? If I smoke, or choke down fatty burgers all my life and then get heart disease or cancer, should you pay that cost, even though you may never smoke and only eat healthy foods, exercising regularly?

Furthermore, if insurance is mandated by the government, and paid for by the taxpayers as part of a socialized health care system then we go back to the topic of socialism: forcing me at gunpoint to pay for the birth control of any woman, hell, even teenage girls, that want it. And again, birth control is something that is taken every day, so why should it be covered by a system set up to insure against the even that something MIGHT happen?

Shit, Kuz, I didn't see your post there when i responded to Brooklyn, but I have to run for now. I'll try to get back to it later.

eh, yeah, but if it wasnt legislation then some insurance companies could offer policies with birth control in them - and some could offer policies without birth control in them.

Then people would have a choice. The same way (I assume), people can be covered for x y z injuries and diseases but not a b c in juries and diseases. Is that not how it works? Are all health insurance policies exactly the same?, or do they all have some "core" and some "non-core" parts?? If so, whatever is in core, the whole country has agreed (or not agreed as we see here), to pay for this to be provided.

This talk of "other people in the same plan", well it doesnt matter what plan you are in, if all plans have to contain this element, you dont get a choice.


This is the part I dont see an answer to, this enforced lack of choice and enforced payment - how can this be defended by saying "its different, its insurance".


If every insurance policy had to contain the right to a breast enlargement when requested, then we'd all be paying for womens (and maybe mens?) breast enlargements.


Please dont tell me "we've covered this", cos I've got an IQ of 140 and if I dont get it its cos your explination isnt good enough, not becuase im not reading.

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Hard work is free. I don't know your goals but if you bust your ass you will get whatever results you want.
- SDMF

Now there's a coverage I can support. I think I need to get on top of this. I'll even get behind it and help push it through. It's an issue I need to get abreast of for sure.

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Trust the government,,,,, obey,,,,consume,,,,procreate.

She chose Georgetown Law, a catholic/jesuit based school. She knew before attending that insurance there would not cover birth control, it is against the school policy and beliefs. She knew that going into it. No one made her go to Georgetown.

She is making the media rounds, supported and driven on by the left wing Media Matters group, to push her "reproductive rights" agenda.

That is what I refer to when I say she wants the school to change its values to accommodate hers.

Yes she should have gone to school elsewhere.

She has inserted herself onto the political stage, if she cant take the heat then get out.

I think I have time to address this before heading out. You say it could be interpreted as, "a liberty," rather than liberty itself, but to control my wealth is at the crux of all my liberties. Like you, I'm only granted a certain amount of days on this earth. The time I spend earning wealth is time I can never get back. It is an exchange of my very life for property. Taxation on my wealth is, in reality, taxation on my life. It is absolutely nothing less than that. Every argument that includes taxation, redistribution of wealth, must be stripped down to this essential fact.

Also, the US government was instituted to preserve men's liberties, not to infringe upon them. It was instituted with a very limited power to expedite certain functions, not to be the all-encompassing leviathan it is today. Over the years more and more power has been stripped away from the Individual, whom the government was created to protect, and given to the government.

Now, each time a child is born, he/she is born into this out-of-control controlling mechanism that says, "because you were born on this side of that line you are subject to these laws and these penalties. Your life's earnings will be taxed as we demand."

It was the original goal of our government to preserve rights, and to preserve the individual. However, disciples of socialism have, little by little, worked to transfer power from the individual to the government. In essence, instead of having the right to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, as was the original intent of the founding of our nation, we are to believe, if you are correct, that we exist merely as a function of the state. That the ultimate goal of our lives to support and provide for the society in which we live, rather than the society in which we live giving us the freedom to live our lives as we choose. I'd like to go on but I really have to leave now.

woah. Well, see now you're arguing semantics or as Wittgenstein would say "playing word games". Wittgenstein also says that all problems of philosophy, including political philosophy can be reduced to word games which have no winner but the games are played for the sake of playing these games, which is why there is never ANY resolution to debate or arguments of this kind, just two people constantly shifting the goal posts and adam expending umpteen pages dissecting every post.

I'll have a go tho. Firstly the government controls ALL liberty. Including my liberty to masturbate in public places. But it allows me the liberty to say anything i want and try and create a "harem" of girls all loyal to me to have sex with on a rotating basis (this has been a VERY tricky project). So i dunno man, as far as i see it, taking a portion of my wealth, which i get back (i.e. i don't have to pay tolls on any roads, bridges, tunnels i use, got treated for cancer last year which i was told would have cost between $50-100,00 in the US, receive unemployment benefit which i was on for about 6 weeks after leaving uni (saved me from destitution) and have a free education which got me into journalism, even though i hate it now). So basically i've got back a hell of a lot from my taxes and my story is VERY typical. I didn't FEEL like someone had robbed me when i was undergoing chemo last year (and the treatment was WORLD CLASS i promise you) but i do sometimes feel robbed when i get the wage slip and think - damn, imagine what i COULD be earning!



Heh, yeah, I guess the US HAS evolved beyond a rag-tag bunch of slave trading colonies cast adrift in a vast open CONTINENT of "empty" land



Every generation has the right to write its own constitution a fresh EVERY TIME. But then i was born in a nation that has never had a written constitution which is, for all its faults, free of ^^^that crap!

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