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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:16 am 
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Location: London, UK
Jesse wrote:
Kuz wrote:
You know, there's no reason to use such provocative overly dramatic language when discussing such mundane issues such as the standardisation of portion sizes... makes you look like an overly emotional simpleton


So you're saying that you have no problem with the government exerting control over this kind of minutiae and you have no qualms about what it will attempt to control next?


How the fuck do you jump from that to a Stalinist regime which sent millions of people to the Gulag, and butchered a large slice of its population to reach modernisation goals?

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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:10 pm
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Its exactly how it starts. It begins with the government thinking it is wiser than the people, make the people dependent on the state.


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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:10 pm
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Location: USA NY
Faust wrote:
You freedom guards don't trust too much in democracy I suppose?

There you have a problem that may burst your country to pieces (as an obesity induced reduced performance of an ever growing number of individuals will affect almost all aspects of USA's assets and performance), which is only to be curtailed in a big collective effort and yet despise any organized provision to overcome it?
I respect your mistrust for politicians and share it to some extend, but from over the pond this looks quite strange.
Just saying.

Faust

We look strange to Europe? Man that is the joke of the week.


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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:33 pm 
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finnegan wrote:
Its exactly how it starts. It begins with the government thinking it is wiser than the people, make the people dependent on the state.


The government is made of people; people that are elected from the people to represent those same people, and create laws to protect and benefit the people. It's getting weirder and weirder to hear this type of argument, where it's like government is an entity wholly separate from the citizens.

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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:53 pm 
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adamantine27 wrote:
finnegan wrote:
Its exactly how it starts. It begins with the government thinking it is wiser than the people, make the people dependent on the state.


The government is made of people; people that are elected from the people to represent those same people, and create laws to protect and benefit the people. It's getting weirder and weirder to hear this type of argument, where it's like government is an entity wholly separate from the citizens.


Good point Ad. Big business influence, corrupt politicians, etc are non-existent in our government.

I believe, it starts with the people's unwillingness to accept responsibility and look for a government which can give them a hand out.


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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
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adamantine27 wrote:
The government is made of people; people that are elected from the people to represent those same people, and create laws to protect and benefit the people. It's getting weirder and weirder to hear this type of argument, where it's like government is an entity wholly separate from the citizens.


While I don't agree with finnegan on the idea that we are headed towards becoming a second version of the Soviet Union, I do think the government is very much an entity separate from the citizens in many ways. That's why we have to limit its powers so much. Governments historically almost always abuse their powers and oppress the people unless adequate checks on its power are put into place, and even then, it still often seeks to. The higher up the level of government, the further from the people it will be. For example, the Senators are going to be a lot more removed from the people then the local town council.

The biggest problems occur with the career politicians in the higher levels of government who can see themselves as a form of ruling elite, and also with various government agencies that seek to expand their size so as to get more money each year. Altogether, while many (not all) of the individuals in the government are ordinary folk who got elected and mean well, the entity overall that they form, "the government," tends to become a behemoth that infringes on people's liberties if not constantly watched. Also, the government doesn't just create laws to protect and benefit the people. It often creates laws to increase its own power and control the populace (an infamous way of doing this is by making the population dependent on a large welfare state). We saw recently how the SCOTUS shot down the anti-free speech laws in the Citizens United case where political speech by certain entities during political campaigns had been outlawed. And so forth.


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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:08 am 
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Why have you mentioned Citizen's United, wheels? you don't agree with that ruling?

Have to say, I agree with Ad. The US government is not some irredeemable vampire. It's imperfect and enormous but that's what you get when you acquire such a large amount of land and place a big population in it. In many ways it does a very decent job.

It is not a fascist entity and it is at the current time unlikely to become one. The greatest danger to it becoming a fascist entity is if the political wing of Christian dominionism becomes ascendant. Now, I know some of you are going to start whining that I'm discussing religon but I assure you that I am not. I have no interest in discussing the whys and wherefores of Christianity. However, the political strategy exhibited by the various dominionist factions across the country when taken in light of statements of intent to do things like establish a state church, repeal civil rights legislation, remove women from the workforce, deny citizenship to non Christians and so on, represent a clear and developing fascist threat far in advance of either portion control or indeed anything currently building on the left.

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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:33 am 
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finnegan you might find it funny, but I think it is like that.
At least if we ever run out of money, there won't be an obesity problem for much longer. :mozilla_wink:

Faust

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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:49 am 
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Brooklyn_teacher wrote:
Why have you mentioned Citizen's United, wheels? you don't agree with that ruling?

Have to say, I agree with Ad. The US government is not some irredeemable vampire. It's imperfect and enormous but that's what you get when you acquire such a large amount of land and place a big population in it. In many ways it does a very decent job.

It is not a fascist entity and it is at the current time unlikely to become one. The greatest danger to it becoming a fascist entity is if the political wing of Christian dominionism becomes ascendant. Now, I know some of you are going to start whining that I'm discussing religon but I assure you that I am not. I have no interest in discussing the whys and wherefores of Christianity. However, the political strategy exhibited by the various dominionist factions across the country when taken in light of statements of intent to do things like establish a state church, repeal civil rights legislation, remove women from the workforce, deny citizenship to non Christians and so on, represent a clear and developing fascist threat far in advance of either portion control or indeed anything currently building on the left.


What group is this you are talking about? I've never heard of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Obesity: Where Do We Draw The Line?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:22 am 
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There are lots of them. Many megachurches have dominionist political organizations attached to them. As a recent example of a dominionist in public life I'd argue that Rick Santorum fit the bill as does Michele Bachman and certain public statements by Sarah Palin.

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