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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:00 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Yeah wheels, it's pretty dumb to say slavery was better at holding together black families than the welfare state.

It's like what adam said. You're saying that slavery was good for keeping blacks together whereas welfare is bad at doing that.

Why not just say WITHOUT slavery OR welfare? How about in a free open and welfare free society, black families could still be held together until welfare destory them?

Or are you saying that black people can't be held together WITHOUT slavery. And if you're not saying that, then why compare to slavery at all?

I mean, can't you then extend this to white people also? And say - "yes, white families are falling apart, as bad as the blacks almost, but remember those days of ancient rome and the Israelite kings when we had slavery? The families were always held together then!"

I mean, then you site studies - what is even the point of such an inference?

It's like saying "Yeah, that Joseph Fritzl dude, he might have kidnapped his daughter, locker her in a dungeon for 20 years, and systematically raped her, proudcing child after child - but you have to admit, at least his family was held together. Now that she was released, it's been torn apart!"

^^ U see how idiotic it is what you're saying?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:08 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
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Kuz wrote:
Yeah wheels, it's pretty dumb to say slavery was better at holding together black families than the welfare state.


I agree. But that's not what I am saying.

Quote:
It's like what adam said. You're saying that slavery was good for keeping blacks together whereas welfare is bad at doing that.


Way to pervert my points. I have never said slavery was good for keeping blacks together and welfare is bad for doing so. My point is just if the state of the black family unit is worse under a welfare state, that could mean the welfare state policies really need to be changed. Pointing out the damage to the black family unit from the welfare state is not any endorsement of slavery.

Quote:
Why not just say WITHOUT slavery OR welfare? How about in a free open and welfare free society, black families could still be held together until welfare destory them?

Or are you saying that black people can't be held together WITHOUT slavery. And if you're not saying that, then why compare to slavery at all?


No, I am not saying anything remotely close to the idea that blacks can't hold together without slavery. I don't know how anyone owuld even read that from my points.

Quote:
I mean, can't you then extend this to white people also? And say - "yes, white families are falling apart, as bad as the blacks almost, but remember those days of ancient rome and the Israelite kings when we had slavery? The families were always held together then!"


Of course you can extend it to white people. However, white people were not enslaved en masse by the United States or discriminated against for many years as blacks were, and whites right now do not have the same problems with the family unit breaking up and poverty that the black population has.

Quote:
I mean, then you site studies - what is even the point of such an inference?

It's like saying "Yeah, that Joseph Fritzl dude, he might have kidnapped his daughter, locker her in a dungeon for 20 years, and systematically raped her, proudcing child after child - but you have to admit, at least his family was held together. Now that she was released, it's been torn apart!"

^^ U see how idiotic it is what you're saying?


Way off-base here. By this example, the argument would be that freeing the slaves hurt the black family. That's not my argument. My argument has been about whether a specific group of policies, i.e. the welfare state, has hurt the black family moreso than slavery did. Again, that's just a damning of the policies, not any endorsement of slavery.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:17 am 
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Christ, instead of trying to stonewall me by trying to get me to justify every thing i said SENTENCE BY SENTENCE, there really is only ONE POINT i was makign you could address... Ok... here goes....

Not sure how to phrase this. But do you think black families did better, were more cohesive, had a better chance of survival in slavery than under welfare?

Your answer - YES.

My retort - how is that NOT like saying Joseph Fritzl's family was held together better when he had his daughter locked in a dungeon where he could rape her at free will.

You look at A - Captivity/rape = family kept together
You look at B - Freedom = family disintegrates

Ipso facto FREEDOM IS THE ENEMY OF THE FAMILY! OMG!!!!!

How dumb are you to compare that "A" to that "B" - it's such a idiotic non sequitor i don't know why you cna't see it, like what is wrong with you??

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:20 am 
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Ok, i'll have a go at your game

Black people slave = family stays together
US adopts of policy of disproportionately recruiting blacks to the military = families begin to disintegrate

OMG! Wheels is a fucking idiot i can't even be bothered with him OMG!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:23 am 
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And yes, you are a fucking racist... you don't even know

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
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Kuz wrote:
Christ, instead of trying to stonewall me by trying to get me to justify every thing i said SENTENCE BY SENTENCE, there really is only ONE POINT i was makign you could address... Ok... here goes....

Not sure how to phrase this. But do you think black families did better, were more cohesive, had a better chance of survival in slavery than under welfare?

Your answer - YES.

My retort - how is that NOT like saying Joseph Fritzl's family was held together better when he had his daughter locked in a dungeon where he could rape her at free will.

You look at A - Captivity/rape = family kept together
You look at B - Freedom = family disintegrates

Ipso facto FREEDOM IS THE ENEMY OF THE FAMILY! OMG!!!!!

How dumb are you to compare that "A" to that "B" - it's such a idiotic non sequitor i don't know why you cna't see it, like what is wrong with you??


Um...no. Freedom is a very good thing. Even with welfare, blacks are a eons better off than they were under slavery. But if welfare has hurt the black family unit more than slavery did, than that is a problem.

Kuz wrote:
Ok, i'll have a go at your game

Black people slave = family stays together


Nope. You are unable to understand the argument. My argument is more like:

Black people free = family stays together
Black people enslaved = families separated and hurt
Black people subjected to welfare = perverted incentives that have harmed the black family unit even more than slavery did

Kuz wrote:
And yes, you are a fucking racist... you don't even know


Please. I have a father who is half-black (i.e. he qualifies as a black man as most blacks have white in them to some degree). Half my family is black as a result. I have a half-sister who is black as well and neice and nephew who are black.

It's nonsense like this that is why no one can have any kind of reasoned debate on these issues in this country, because the moment one tries to, they get tagged as being a racist.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:41 pm 
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well i didn't exactly think you were going to leave me with the last word, but it seems you've already back tracked half your argument so i guess i'll settle with that.

i would take you up on the "racist" point - but nah, i'll leave it at that. For now i think its enough you've tempered your views, so i guess that's the best we can hope for :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:59 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 2224
Kuz wrote:
well i didn't exactly think you were going to leave me with the last word, but it seems you've already back tracked half your argument so i guess i'll settle with that.

i would take you up on the "racist" point - but nah, i'll leave it at that. For now i think its enough you've tempered your views, so i guess that's the best we can hope for :)


Well I haven't back-tracked anything, I think you just didn't understand my point at first.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does it matter if Obama was born in Kenya?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:48 am 
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Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:52 pm
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WheelsRCool wrote:
Nope. You are unable to understand the argument. My argument is more like:

Black people free = family stays together
Black people enslaved = families separated and hurt
Black people subjected to welfare = perverted incentives that have harmed the black family unit even more than slavery did


You exact statement was "Black families held together better under slavery than they do under the welfare state."

How in the hell does that sentence include the idea: Black people enslaved = families separated and hurt.

At best, your argument is:

Black families on welfare = perverted incentives that harmed the family unit worse than slavery.
Black families under slavery = families hold together better than welfare families
logical inference: slavery better at keeping black families together.

WheelsRCool wrote:
Please. I have a father who is half-black (i.e. he qualifies as a black man as most blacks have white in them to some degree). Half my family is black as a result. I have a half-sister who is black as well and neice and nephew who are black.


Right. I apologize if I can't take this as facially valid, because it reminds me of another time where it seemed like you were making things up on the fly because you were backed into a corner. It's like that time in which we were debating global warming, and you were asserting a conspiracy on behalf of all global scientist in one direction, and when I asked you to prove it (because it would take LITERALLY ALL OF THEM TO DO IT), you had nothing, and ignored it, stating something along the lines of "market incentives," and then after I asked you to prove it again, you suddenly had an anecdote about a "friend" of yours that was a climatologist/grad student that was supposedly asked to fudge numbers for his professor/boss. Right. It's pretty odd that you didn't try to qualify your slavery/welfare statement with this information before, as it's been stated about three times on the boards and pointed out all three times that it's either very racist or very radical and you shouldn't go around advertising it if you didn't want to be thought of as racist. That's information that you lead with, not a collateral matter.

Regardless, what you're saying anyway is pretty racist anyhow. I mean... I'm half Czech, half Mexican. My mother's mexican. My sisters are half mexican. This is something that I've stated repeatedly on the boards in several different conversations. But if I were suddenly to start saying disparaging things about mexicans, I'm not somehow absolved of that. And geez, man... even if you KNOW and love people in your life that are black, these sort of statements don't act as a shield. There is a common saying in the south which my girlfriend's mother told me when she was talking about her experiences with integration in Alabama: "love the individual, hate the race." That's STILL racist!

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