Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » RossTraining.com Forums » Strength and Conditioning




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:20 am 

Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 4:40 am
Posts: 136
I think Steve is right make sure you can do the rugby training first then add strength & conditioning sessions.
And if you want to see what he dose and how much of a bad ass he is checkout the {SCA intro} link in his sig.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 354
It sounds like you're playing the same position I did last year in rugby. I wore the #4 jersey.

To be honest my suggestion is to start strength training immediately. Get yourself onto a reasonable plateau in like 7-8 weeks, then once the season starts taper off of your strength training to two sessions per week.

For lock I did a lot of strength training routines but it really wore me out.

I would recommend training little more than pistol squats, back bridges, chinups, and handstand pushups. That's all you really need. Then use a jump rope to cover up your weak points and make sure they use an agility ladder in training.
Do some accessory stuff like weighted one-legged calf raises, maybe situps, and grip work too.

Comparable barbell work would be either oly lifts (which are straight dynamite for a lock), or deadlifts and military presses. You can round it out with some bench press too.

As a forward, you don't have to worry about being as fast or agile as the backs, but it helps to have good footwork when tackling. What you mostly have to worry about is your lower back.

Also make sure to eat a lot (and reasonably clean) during the season. I dropped 3-4 pounds just from playing in tournaments. I also lost about 15 pounds on my deadlift. It's not something to worry about (strength wise), just something to be aware of.

Off-season is for strength training, in season is for skill and conditioning, generally speaking.

Quote:
That is sound advice guys, favoring rugby work over strength and conditioning work.

Actually implementing this advice will be a tough juggling act for me. I am quite unfit, and I need a LOT of training in many areas. Just to play rugby, I'll have to work on lot on strength and conditioning, as well as the specific rugby skills.

Oh, and David, I am presenting slowly working through Rippetoe's Starting Strength program using barbells.

By way of background, I am 46 years old and have been severely obese and unfit albeit otherwise healthy my entire life. I have lost over 160 pounds in the past 64+ weeks, through patience and persistence. I have during that time also exercised, albeit moderately. When you are really heavy, you can't do deadlifts with proper form or hill sprints without injury. Now that I am lighter, I do perform such exercises, but not with high volume or frequency due to a restricted calorie diet. Once the last 50 pounds of fat is gone, I am switching over to an athletic training diet and gradually ramping up the intensity, volume, and frequency of exercise.

Those who are curious to know more details can take a look at my Workout Log which I started last year over on the CrossFit Forum:
PaleoZone vs Morbid Obesity: An Odyssey


That's quite interesting. I'm impressed that you have lost that much weight with moderate exercise. Nothing wrong with crossfit imo but they need better form police in their gyms.

I was not aware that you were 46. My training bit won't be much different except incorporate some twisting motions into your workout, and go slow. What I noticed with the older rugby players who whored onto our team was that they were not quite at limber as the younger players. Most of them were bulked almost beyond belief but they couldn't twist around to pass backwards as quickly. So maybe give russian twists a shot for ab work.

Go slow, I pulled a groin muscle in floor hockey once and that was pure misery for about six months. Twisting type stuff prevents these kind of injuries. Leg raises and stuff like that. Good work so far man.

I have not bought infinite intensity but never gymless is definitely primo for rugby training. My advice so far is just pare off some of the exercises. Doing too many in a week will wear you out. The general rule is that it takes 8 weeks to acclimate to a certain type of strength exercise.

_________________
Check out my new training blog!
Book reviews, workouts, tips, and more!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:00 am
Posts: 117
LukeSeubert wrote:
Next Spring, I plan to go out for the local D3 rugby football club. My size and height make me a candidate for loose forward, likely one of the two lock positions.


This is picky but I do it with the best of intentions to help expand your rugby knowledge.

Locks are part of the tight 5. Loose forwards are 6,7 and 8. The loose forwards are distinct from the locks and the 3 loose forwards are distinct from each other yet again ( I like to see an enforcer, a ball carrier and a forager )


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 40
jdhawg wrote:
I think Steve is right make sure you can do the rugby training first then add strength & conditioning sessions.
And if you want to see what he dose and how much of a bad ass he is checkout the {SCA intro} link in his sig.

Thanks, jdhawg, I'll take a look at that.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 40
Nawa wrote:
This is picky but I do it with the best of intentions to help expand your rugby knowledge.

Locks are part of the tight 5. Loose forwards are 6,7 and 8. The loose forwards are distinct from the locks and the 3 loose forwards are distinct from each other yet again ( I like to see an enforcer, a ball carrier and a forager )

Thanks for the clarification, Nawa. I tend to think of the front 3 as the tight forwards and the back 5 as the loose forwards. Where I picked that up I don't exactly recall. By way of preparation, I have been watching games and reading books, just to learn some simple basics of the game. But my real learning begins when I actually start playing.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 40
Doc_Hades wrote:
It sounds like you're playing the same position I did last year in rugby. I wore the #4 jersey.

To be honest my suggestion is to start strength training immediately. Get yourself onto a reasonable plateau in like 7-8 weeks, then once the season starts taper off of your strength training to two sessions per week.

I am already doing Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength program, which features squats, deadlifts, power cleans, bench presses, shoulder presses, and pullups. I am doing it, for the time being, with the main goal of maintaining lean body mass as I rapidly lose fat. Later, I'll work on building strength and muscle mass. For now, it is strength workouts (among other things) twice a week, at modest weights, with slow linear progression.

Doc_Hades wrote:
For lock I did a lot of strength training routines but it really wore me out.

I would recommend training little more than pistol squats, back bridges, chinups, and handstand pushups. That's all you really need. Then use a jump rope to cover up your weak points and make sure they use an agility ladder in training.
Do some accessory stuff like weighted one-legged calf raises, maybe situps, and grip work too.

Comparable barbell work would be either oly lifts (which are straight dynamite for a lock), or deadlifts and military presses. You can round it out with some bench press too.

Thanks, I'll bear this advice in mind. It looks like NG and II have this covered, especially if I do some of the II dumbbell workouts with barbells now and then. I like dumbbells for the explosive lifts, but barbells are great for deadlifts. There is just something I really like about picking heavy weight off the floor.

Doc_Hades wrote:
As a forward, you don't have to worry about being as fast or agile as the backs, but it helps to have good footwork when tackling. What you mostly have to worry about is your lower back.

Also make sure to eat a lot (and reasonably clean) during the season. I dropped 3-4 pounds just from playing in tournaments. I also lost about 15 pounds on my deadlift. It's not something to worry about (strength wise), just something to be aware of.

I plan to do some SAQ drills this coming Fall, just to develop faster feet.

As for eating well.... well, if there is one thing I have got absolutely locked down it is a high quality diet. Losing an average of 2.52 pounds per week (1.14 kilos) for 65 weeks requires a lot of discipline, especially when on a mostly Paleo diet. I am looking forward to bringing this discipline to an athletic training diet. High quality nutrition is the foundation upon which athletic excellence is built.

Doc_Hades wrote:
That's quite interesting. I'm impressed that you have lost that much weight with moderate exercise. Nothing wrong with crossfit imo but they need better form police in their gyms.

Well, hard exercise as a means to lose weight is a good strategy for people who are merely overweight or moderately obese. But it doesn't work so well for people who are really fat, like I was. At 49% BFC and 425.6 pounds (193 kilos), I was Class II Super-Obese, and utterly incapable of doing a variety of exercises. But, I could walk briskly, so I did that. And as the fat came off, I expanded the variety and intensity of my exercise.

Much of the advice circulating out there on how to lose fat works well for modestly fat people. But for really fat people, who quite literally have a very different metabolism and hormonal profile, much of the traditional advice doesn't work so well. For example, most fat people suffer from elevated blood sugar and insulin levels, so they are told to go on a low-carb diet to lower insulin and thus fat storage. Problem is, if a person is really fat, they have to low-carb diet for a really long time. Chronic low-carb dieting depresses metabolism and screws up numerous hormone levels. Thus, really fat people can't go on continuous low-carb diets. They need to integrate twice weekly carb upcycles, and take a two week break from dieting entirely every so often to restore metabolic rates and hormonal balance.

These days, I am rapidly peeling off most of the remaining fat - about 50 pounds to go - but such low caloric intake doesn't support lots of hard exercise. So I exercise moderately, enough to maintain muscle mass and slowly improve conditioning. My primary goal right now is getting rid of the fat as quickly and yet as safely as I can. After that, I switch over to increased caloric intake and ramp up much harder and more frequent training.

Doc_Hades wrote:
I was not aware that you were 46. My training bit won't be much different except incorporate some twisting motions into your workout, and go slow. What I noticed with the older rugby players who whored onto our team was that they were not quite at limber as the younger players. Most of them were bulked almost beyond belief but they couldn't twist around to pass backwards as quickly. So maybe give russian twists a shot for ab work.

Go slow, I pulled a groin muscle in floor hockey once and that was pure misery for about six months. Twisting type stuff prevents these kind of injuries. Leg raises and stuff like that. Good work so far man.

Thanks, Doc, I appreciate the age specific advice. I have been doing some Power Yoga workouts to help build flexibility, and one of these days I'll get going with the foam roller.

I have done pretty well with avoiding injury so far. I am able to exercise much more intensely than a year ago, but haven't really gotten injured. Several years back, during a previous attempt at fat loss and fitness gain, I kept an exercise journal. Back then, I was taking ibuprofen three or four time a week, and all I was doing was brisk walking and stair stepping. Nowadays, I might take ibuprofen once a month, and I am lifting weights, prowler pushing, hill sprinting, playing with medicine balls, etc.

What is the difference between nagging aches and pains back then and no injuries now? I think it is mostly the fish oil and Paleo diet which is very low in foods which cause silent inflammation.

Doc_Hades wrote:
I have not bought infinite intensity but never gymless is definitely primo for rugby training. My advice so far is just pare off some of the exercises. Doing too many in a week will wear you out. The general rule is that it takes 8 weeks to acclimate to a certain type of strength exercise.

Yeah, in looking over the 5-day cycle of NG with 4-On, 1-Off; I realize there is no way I could sustain that AND do rugby practice three times per week.

I am thinking of spreading those four NG/II workouts days over the course of seven days instead of five, to lighten up the load a bit for my aged ass, and even then dropping NG/II workouts when I really need the rest and recovery.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:32 am 

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:10 am
Posts: 1658
Location: Hampshire, UK
jdhawg wrote:
I think Steve is right make sure you can do the rugby training first then add strength & conditioning sessions.
And if you want to see what he dose and how much of a bad ass he is checkout the {SCA intro} link in his sig.


:mozilla_oops: :mozilla_cool:

_________________
Training priority for combat sport is SKILL, CONDITIONING, STRENGTH.
I swear I will smash your face in with a brick if you keep arguing!

log
SCA intro


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:22 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 40
Unleashing My Inner Planning & Organizing Geek
OK, since folks here on the boards are in agreement that NG and II would help me get in shape for rugby, I thought I would propose a workout schedule template to use as a rough guide, and see if I can get some feedback and critique.

Before I begin though, allow me to point out that, yes, I tend to be a little... ahem... overly thorough when it comes to planning and organizing. Hey, it's the way I am, and this sort of planning and thinking is part of what empowered me to get serious about fat loss, nutrition, and exercise so far; so I think it will serve me well as I train up for better fitness and rugby.

Also, be aware that this is a rough draft template, a guideline. As several people have pointed out, rugby practice should take priority over my own personal strength and conditioning training. It will. Moreoever, I do not expect to actually be able to keep up with the rigorous schedule detailed below, not at first. I am not yet fit enough for that, and won't be for quite a while. So if I need to, I'll drop my personal workouts to ensure that I am fully recovered and properly rested for rugby practices. In time though, my goal is to follow something like the workout schedule below. Finally, I have no problem with adapting this schedule and tweaking it. Please offer suggestions as you see fit.

Basically, I am taking the four days worth of workouts from Enamait's 5-day workout cycle and putting them into a full 7-day cycle, along with the three weekly rugby practices. The weeks alternate, moving from Never Gymless workouts to Infinite Intensity workouts from week to week. It takes 20 full weeks (140 days) to proceed all the way through both of the NG and II 50-day schedules. After plenty of rest on Saturday afternoon and all of Sunday, the week starts off with a lot of workouts, with rest periods built in before Thursday PM and Saturday AM rugby practices.

Two Conerns
Under Enamait's 50 day workout schedule, every 5th 5-day cycle requires backing off on the strength workouts to comply with conjugate periodization. That means that the strength workouts ease off every 20 days. However, given the way I have stretched out Enamait's workout cycle over 7 days instead of 5 days; the backoff strength workouts only come every 28 days, not every 20. Is this too long? Should I be doing backoff strength workouts every 3 weeks, i.e. 21 days, instead?

Under the Never Gymless Cycle, I have Strength Training and Core Training scheduled for Tuesday morning, with a rugby practice following on Tuesday evening. Is strength training followed that soon by rugby practice a bad idea? I can flip workouts around, to put conditioning work on Tuesday morning, much like the Infinite Intensity Cycle is set up. Any thoughts on this? Any other problems that pop out?

Never Gymless Cycle
  • Mon AM - Integrated Circuit Training
  • Mon PM - Isometrics
  • Tue AM - Strength Training & Core Training
  • Tue PM - Rugby Practice
  • Wed AM - Enhanced Interval Training
  • Wed PM - Isometrics
  • Thu AM - Rest
  • Thu PM - Rugby Practice
  • Fri AM - Strength Training & Core Training
  • Fri PM - Rest
  • Sat AM - Rugby Practice or Match
  • Sat PM - Rest
  • Sun AM - Rest
  • Sun PM - Rest

Infinite Intensity Cycle
  • Mon AM - Warrior Challenge & Finisher
  • Mon PM - Core Training
  • Tue AM - Interval Training
  • Tue PM - Rugby Practice
  • Wed AM - Strength Workout & Finisher
  • Wed PM - Core Training
  • Thu AM - Rest
  • Thu PM - Rugby Practice
  • Fri AM - General Physical Preparedness
  • Fri PM - Rest
  • Sat AM - Rugby Practice or Match
  • Sat PM - Rest
  • Sun AM - Rest
  • Sun PM - Rest

Alternating Weekly NG and II Cycles With 28-Day Conjugate Periodization
(Italicized Workout Cycles are Strength Backoff Weeks)

_Week__________Workout Cycle__________
1 of 20_______Never Gymless Cycle #1 (Days 1-5)
2 of 20_______Infinite Intensity Cycle #1 (Days 1-5)
3 of 20_______Never Gymless Cycle #2 (Days 6-10)
4 of 20_______Infinite Intensity Cycle #2 (Days 6-10)
5 of 20_______Never Gymless Cycle #5 (Days 21-25)
6 of 20_______Infinite Intensity Cycle #3 (Days 11-15)
7 of 20_______Never Gymless Cycle #3 (Days 11-15)
8 of 20_______Infinite Intensity Cycle #4 (Days 17-20)
9 of 20_______Never Gymless Cycle #4 (Days 17-20)
10 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #5 (Days 21-25)
11 of 20______Never Gymless Cycle #6 (Days 26-30)
12 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #6 (Days 26-30)
13 of 20______Never Gymless Cycle #7 (Days 31-35)
14 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #7 (Days 31-35)
15 of 20______Never Gymless Cycle #10 (Days 46-50)
16 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #8 (Days 36-40)
17 of 20______Never Gymless Cycle #8 (Days 36-40)
18 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #9 (Days 41-45)
19 of 20______Never Gymless Cycle #9 (Days 41-45)
20 of 20______Infinite Intensity Cycle #10 (Days 46-50)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:48 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 13346
I wouldn't alternate between the two books. Take ideas from both (as well as other sources). A strength workout could include free weights, bodyweight exercise, odd objects, etc. You don't need to switch back and forth between "sample" workouts/routines.

Remember, the sample plans are just that (samples). They serve as one of many options (ie. a visual demonstration of the principles discussed within the text).

Some related info regarding the "sample" plans can be found in the post-purchase section.

viewtopic.php?t=33662

In summary, don't blindly follow any routine. Take bits and pieces and apply the material in a way that makes sense for you. Take into consideration your individual needs, abilities, past experiences, ability to recover, etc.

_________________
Blog - Facebook - Youtube - Twitter

Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Do NG and II Provide A Sound Training Template For Rugby
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:20 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 40
Ross Enamait wrote:
Some related info regarding the "sample" plans can be found in the post-purchase section.

viewtopic.php?t=33662

Ross, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I greatly appreciate your insight.

I reviewed the FAQ sections relating to sample plans as you suggested, and I will follow your advice to adapt the sample templates to my unique training needs. For example, I will now move strength-biased workouts so that they occur 24 to 36 hours before rugby practice or matches, to allow for sufficient recovery time.

Ross Enamait wrote:
I wouldn't alternate between the two books. Take ideas from both (as well as other sources). A strength workout could include free weights, bodyweight exercise, odd objects, etc. You don't need to switch back and forth between "sample" workouts/routines.

Remember, the sample plans are just that (samples). They serve as one of many options (ie. a visual demonstration of the principles discussed within the text).

In summary, don't blindly follow any routine. Take bits and pieces and apply the material in a way that makes sense for you. Take into consideration your individual needs, abilities, past experiences, ability to recover, etc.

I understand why you encourage using the sample workout cycles as suggested templates for customization, rather than written in stone workouts.

Still, I really like the overall structure and exercise choices in your 5-day workout cycles. In my case, I would have to turn a 5-day cycle into a 7-day cycle, among other adaptations. But I would want to keep the broad mix of training modalities and variation which you present.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Board index » RossTraining.com Forums » Strength and Conditioning


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

Ads by Google


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to: